tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post979443206810180944..comments2024-03-27T10:43:30.532+00:00Comments on Known World, Old World: The Old School is Pathetic – A RantAndy Bartletthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-38643745382149713502020-12-11T06:42:48.211+00:002020-12-11T06:42:48.211+00:00When I searched for my name out of idle curiosity,...When I searched for my name out of idle curiosity, I found this discussion 7.5 years later. I apologize for missing the sarcasm, but it is hard to translate sarcasm via the Internet, and reality seems to compete with satire. Witness people citing the Onion.<br /><br />That said, I still think there is a certain joy in escapism in RPGs. I've played games with a slice of life approach, with the goal of wacky hijinx. Back in 2013, RPGs were one of my few ways to escape a boring, humdrum daily life. Your description of pathetic roleplaying sounded like volunteering to work unpaid at my dull jobs, with risk of randomly getting fired. <br /><br />When you can't have awesome in real life, maybe a little awesome in roleplaying wouldn't hurt. <br /><br />Cheers and have a great holiday.OmegaPaladinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16031663925500964350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-70260335706995722452020-01-24T07:22:17.022+00:002020-01-24T07:22:17.022+00:00Strangely enough, I've never been able to make...Strangely enough, I've never been able to make Fate shane at the gaming table, even though I was mightily impressed by how Fate points in theory should work to create a dramatic arc. I guess it was mostly about the feeling that as I GM, i was being drowned in aspects and always afraid to do it "wrong". But I know a lot of people who have great fun with fate ... for me, Gumshoe works perfectly when it comes to the more narrative approach. By now, playing Gumshoe has practically become the same as playing freeform.<br />However, for everything that is not explicitly about creating a certain type of narrative, and especially for everything that is a little more combat heavy, it's been back to old school for me - which in my case means the d100 family (and, more recently, Fighing Fantasy and Troika), the main reason being that these systems don't have a complex economy of Fate Points or Bennies or Drama Points and - even more importantly - they don't have dozens of Feats or similar special features for PCs.<br />Having a system that allows characters to just die from bad decisions and bad luck can actually be pretty liberating and productive in terms of story: If every death is heroic and the game is always about grand, fulfilling moments, mostly, you'll get the lowest common denominator of melodramatics out of it - which is not a bad thing, but it can become stale. Or put differently: If a game system gives you a tool to consciously make the thing that you consider most cool at that specific moment happen, it's obviously that you get that cool moment out of it - but you miss out on other options you wouldn't even have thought about. Of course it feels great when the antagonist gets his or her just deserts in a dramatically appopriate fashion, but it might be even cooler if he dies a sudden and undramatic death, only for one of his henchman, who's just trying to save his skin and get away, to kill of one of the characters afterwards. That's probably not a course of events anyone at the table would try to enforce by using story-rules, but it might very well be one that makes for a great and surprising story.Swanosaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05623647202310934314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-8296873165046310272020-01-23T14:11:26.384+00:002020-01-23T14:11:26.384+00:00Don't worry about being late!
I'm taking ...Don't worry about being late!<br /><br />I'm taking the piss out of myself more than a little in the post (which some people couldn't tell - various forum posts at the time thought it was deadly serious). And I'm increasingly taken by games that don't do the 'pathetic aesthetic' all that well - Fate for example.<br /><br />BUT it is still a fair overview of the reasons why I like the kind of games I mention - which absolutely would stretch to stuff like MERP and the BRP/d100 family of games. Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-10358088083421699912020-01-21T13:32:42.809+00:002020-01-21T13:32:42.809+00:00Oh my gods ... I'm seven years late to the dis...Oh my gods ... I'm seven years late to the discussion, but this blog post brought a tear to my eye. more than one tear, actually. And I'm not even that much of an old school grognard (never was able to wrap my head around D&D, we were playing Stormbringer, CoC and MERP - and Fighting Fantasy and Lone Wolf gamebooks when the others didn't have time). And I actually do like a lot of these indie games that enforce a dramatic arc, if they are about creating highly focussed one- or two-shots like Fiaso or Polaris do. But for good old campaign play, the pathetic aesthetic it is. (I still remember fondly the meaningless death of my high-level bard when I wasn't even THERE and someone else was running him for me - and while everyone involved felt terrible about it, no one offered or expected to go back on that. It was epic in its own way. Fate had punched me in the gut, and that's something you don't forget).<br />Also, now I finally know why Pathfinder covers make me shrink back in revulsion.Swanosaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05623647202310934314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-51938029142717594422014-06-10T01:21:52.602+01:002014-06-10T01:21:52.602+01:00The issue raised about D&D4 was about the fact...The issue raised about D&D4 was about the fact that most game encounters are handled via micromanaged dice mechanics & and a narrowly defined set of character skills. If an action isn't listed on a character sheet, players won't try to do it, which I don't like about modern gaming.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02267574312009269425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-63072573163869764202013-10-17T12:22:42.143+01:002013-10-17T12:22:42.143+01:00Cheers novafix - I like your Ogryns by the way.
I...Cheers novafix - I like your Ogryns by the way.<br /><br />I will say, with regard to RPGs, it isn't about killing PCs, it is about ensuring that they have the possibility for failure. Not failure that is meaningful from a story point of view, but certainly failure that is meaningful in so much as it results from player decisions and character actions. It is neither 'rocks fall, everyone dies', nor is it, [fudges rolls to ensure that...] 'Svenn dies a heroic death saving the kingdom'. But it certainly can be the case that the players, in attempting to save the kingdom, decide to take the risky mountain pass, don't hire a local guide, and [roll on random tables] watch their characters die as result of an 'encounter' with a rockfall.<br /><br />I am a fan for failure arising from 'play' - which I think of as the decisions that the players make to have their characters interact with the world, not 'story' or from dice that are rolled absent of any player decision. An example of this would be an adventure in which the PCs must pass through a 'funnel point' that requires a Saving Throw - well, that is success or failure entirely down to a dice roll, with the players' decisions irrelevant. Now, if the players choose to go the risky route, that their PCs fate hangs on a dice roll is the product of a decision they have made.<br /><br />Ack, I'm rambling again... Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-65629630193496210952013-10-15T16:09:27.908+01:002013-10-15T16:09:27.908+01:00A very good summary of what I like in my games (I&...A very good summary of what I like in my games (I'm 36 and been playing for a while). I want hopeless chances and gallows humour in my predicaments. I liked your sentence about the Dwarves defending a barn in some desolate nowhere just hoping they'd make it through the night.<br /><br />I do think some modern games have that going for them though. Faster Than Light is a great indy game where you're essentially up against it from the get go and your chances of survival are next to nil & board game wise, you can look at games like Ghost Stories (just really tough). <br /><br />Role Playing games are as much about your player base as your chosen system and as the DM/GM/Story Teller you *can* weave an heroic death for zero gain into the story but it's tough. I've not played Pen and Paper with any younger role players though I have had people from back in the day whose only goal was to 'win' and they designed their characters to to do just that. <br /><br />I'll always remember playing Dungeon Quest back in Uni and dying 75-90% of the time without fail. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-59762774737624571562013-06-24T07:00:32.633+01:002013-06-24T07:00:32.633+01:00I don't agree with your assertion that the gam...I don't agree with your assertion that the game should come before the narrative, but you are dead on in your assertion that point-build games cater to the Teh Awesum attitude. This is why I like there to be as much randomization as possible in the character creation process. Traveller does this particularly well. My system of choice is Basic Roleplaying though. Regarding your position on narrative versus game, I have three words for you: Call of Cthulhu.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15692946822896192833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-40907588505280208732013-06-03T20:41:40.066+01:002013-06-03T20:41:40.066+01:00One of the best articles I've read in a long t...One of the best articles I've read in a long time. You've also possibly explained the revulsion I feel when seeing most of GW's latest releases, miniature-wise. They seem to be a design equivalent of a house at Christmas with far too many lights on it...Kieran Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04191062526187270925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-1296546555419003272013-02-20T07:34:53.255+00:002013-02-20T07:34:53.255+00:00Excellent article. Now that I've had some run-...Excellent article. Now that I've had some run-time to think on it I'ld say the conflict between the pathetic and teh awesum is a big one.<br />As a GM I want the players to get involved in the world, the story and eventually foil the foul demon Arch-Duke McNaughtypants. I also want them to feel that every battle could be their last.Worlds of WillyDJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11439172189420459958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-28342180142226669802013-02-19T10:55:04.700+00:002013-02-19T10:55:04.700+00:00Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-16256470574842834902013-02-19T10:54:01.075+00:002013-02-19T10:54:01.075+00:00"In fact, I would say that random chance robs..."In fact, I would say that random chance robs a classic tragedy of its power - characters in tragedies don't fall because they are screwed by fate, they fall because of a character flaw."<br /><br />That's why it isn't the 'tragic aesthetic', but the 'pathetic aesthetic'. If a game promises the PCs a tragic end, that's as bad as promising them a heroic success. There has to be the very real risk of pathetic fate (which need not always equals death, but in a game of mortal combat it surely must be a real possibility) in order for the tragic/heroic PC fates to mean anything. If I wanted to enjoy a story in dramatically meaningful fates were ensured, I would read a book or watch a film. Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-86626870678574942422013-02-19T10:50:02.515+00:002013-02-19T10:50:02.515+00:00"Were you going for the "Back in my day ..."Were you going for the "Back in my day we had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both way!" style deliberately?" Errr, yes. Quite obviously. I wrote; "You young folk just don't know how to have fun these days! Not proper fun anyhow, what with your Xstations and would Wiboxes" and "When I were a lad, all this were fields". Now, being a real life Yorkshireman, if you heard me say it aloud you might think it serious - but you can't read my accent. If this, and the fact that the post starts "A rant, in which I play the pseud, before growing tired and irritable" doesn't tell you that the style was a deliberate choice, then I don't know what would. Winking smilies all over the place?<br /><br />But the bulk of your comment seems to confuse player character suffering with player suffering. I have addressed that here:<br /><br />http://drbargle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/player-character-suffering-player.html<br /><br />"On the other hand, if the DM of your 1stEd DND just told you 'Rocks fall, everyone dies, the end.", would think that would improve the game experience." That's being a dick GM, so no.<br /><br />"Also, as an actor with some experience..." I don't think that fantasy gaming is about amateur dramatics, but that's another post. Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-55415630890984198132013-02-19T05:44:29.494+00:002013-02-19T05:44:29.494+00:00Wow, I'm kind of blown away by the nostalgia. ...Wow, I'm kind of blown away by the nostalgia. Were you going for the "Back in my day we had to walk ten miles to school, uphill both way!" style deliberately?<br /><br />I read through this, and I couldn't really find an actual benefit of playing a pitiable, weak character. These are games. It's a rule-bound activity designed for entertainment. It seems silly to say that having fun must have some element of unpleasantness involved, or that having fun must involve feeling pathetic. <br /><br />There's a difference between challenge and suffering here. Challenge and difficulty are what require the use of logic and tactical thinking in games. A lack of challenge removes the game aspect, and it is purely an exercise in group storytelling. Suffering, on the other hand, is about forcing the player to experience unpleasant situations in order to proceed. Tossing people into unwinnable situations, or forcing them to feel useless are cases like that. In real life, we have to deal with lots of situations that suck like that. However, why does a game need to do that? As I mentioned before, games are entertainment, not some kind of purifying ordeal. Suffering and being pitiable is not a necessary component. Would you refuse a gift one the grounds that you did not suffer to get it? Would you forfeit a soccer football match if none of your players were hurt? On the other hand, if the DM of your 1stEd DND just told you 'Rocks fall, everyone dies, the end.", would think that would improve the game experience.<br /><br />Also, as an actor with some experience, I know that there is a certain challenge in playing a role without rehearsing for it - that's Improv. However, choosing a role and doing your best to bring a character concept to life is also challenging. It also doesn't matter if the play is a tragedy or comedy, they both involve skill in portraying the role. In fact, I would say that random chance robs a classic tragedy of its power - characters in tragedies don't fall because they are screwed by fate, they fall because of a character flaw. OmegaPaladinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16031663925500964350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-6184730669577585212013-02-17T08:12:04.941+00:002013-02-17T08:12:04.941+00:00Til the last hand rolls the last die. Even then, v...Til the last hand rolls the last die. Even then, villain you will still not have suffered enough!Worlds of WillyDJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11439172189420459958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-86647196161158146272013-02-16T22:54:45.550+00:002013-02-16T22:54:45.550+00:00I find an interesting disconnect between your love...I find an interesting disconnect between your love of being able to lose, and your contempt for 'balance' in a game. What the instant-gratification kids want isn't balance, it's an imbalanced game that's tilted in their favor. Whether it's D&D or Warhammer.<br /><br />Your post does remind me though of when I used to teach at a local Art College. One day we got our first batch of "Millennials", and I was floored to see so many kids dripping with technological gizmos and addicted to Facebook. But who had never actually used this technology to create anything of their own. Ever. Something which I'd never encountered before, but have many times since.<br /><br />Such as when I go out test the wargame I'm writing by taking it to the local shop. The 24 and older gamers are always interested, and ask me about how it works, offer suggestions, etc. Yet the Millennials floor me because they just stand there, mouth open and google-eyed. Utterly amazed that such a thing is even possible. Creation is an act that they have no experience with. "You... you MADE this?" Then they back away and shoot uncomfortable glances my way. Like I'm some supernatural creature.<br /><br />So maybe you're running up against this cultural change, and mistaking it for 'style'?SandWyrmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02265244938930651317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-57384105995236148152013-02-16T11:11:55.451+00:002013-02-16T11:11:55.451+00:00Hah! Self-abasement is part of any good rant.Hah! Self-abasement is part of any good rant.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-78869589317766783602013-02-15T02:37:10.806+00:002013-02-15T02:37:10.806+00:00Nice read.... actually, it was quite pathetic! 8&...Nice read.... actually, it was quite pathetic! 8')Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03979465698462629194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-57604052747042984132013-02-14T22:59:54.698+00:002013-02-14T22:59:54.698+00:00This aversion to tragedy is endemic, I think. To b...This aversion to tragedy is endemic, I think. To break away from RPGs, I feel that ths is the reason so many people had an issue with Mass Effect 3, to take an example...the game's different endings were each equally tragic in different ways. Everyone I talked to who disliked them didn't like the endings because in none of them did they come out on top triumphantly.Doctor Futurityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02586371999646337047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-80302856467749309952013-02-14T22:55:23.438+00:002013-02-14T22:55:23.438+00:00Thanks for clarifying, and I am inclined to agree....Thanks for clarifying, and I am inclined to agree. I think a good way of looking at it is like this: in reading a story, you're presented with a narrative that is (if done right) unexpected and interesting for the reader, but behind the scenes the author has it all plotted out, and his success comes from keeping the machinery of the writer's process hidden from the reader, who remains caught up in the story and not what's behind it. A good gaming approach does something similar, but maybe its important to regard the GM not as the author of the tale, manipulating the strings behind the curtain, but as himself a participant, and the rules serve as a necessary medium of fair arbitration to allow both player and GM to get that same sense of excitement and uncertainty at the outcome of the story. The problem crops up when the GM confuses his role as being like that of an author, rather than a mediator, perhaps. Thus why a GM who fudges a die roll to save a PC has effectively cheated himself out of a better gameplay experience (as well as his player) in the misguided cause of being fair or keeping a plot steered a certain direction, while a more organic and exciting experience is to be had when the player and GM both accept that sometimes the game itself leads you down a different...and better...story than you could have ever imagined.Doctor Futurityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02586371999646337047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-17059504292887393972013-02-14T18:27:31.796+00:002013-02-14T18:27:31.796+00:00Bravo on post and discussion. I went through two b...Bravo on post and discussion. I went through two bags of popcorn!<br />Teenage Visigothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01326660312992790705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-30717421921575356212013-02-14T07:10:34.675+00:002013-02-14T07:10:34.675+00:00Great article. These are concepts that I've b...Great article. These are concepts that I've been articulating for years. Thanks!Professor Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14553875574589978412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-61096898144731882152013-02-12T10:16:33.442+00:002013-02-12T10:16:33.442+00:00I am afraid it does not work that way. I know from...I am afraid it does not work that way. I know from bitter experience that anything you say online will be used against you in utter and solemn seriousness, no matter how tongue in cheek.<br /><br />I actually had a much less incendiary version of this rant in my mind for a few years - that 'TEH AWESUM' is empty calories, basically, and awesomeness is relative - but every time I considered posting it, I reminded myself some people still consider me the Internet equivalent of Emmanuel Goldstein for writing some posts about fun back in 2006 and 2008.<br /><br />Online discussion is well and truly dead. Well, welcome to the Hate Machine and good luck.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-20618926616737369392013-02-12T08:59:54.084+00:002013-02-12T08:59:54.084+00:00I have died innumerable deaths across the multiver...I have died innumerable deaths across the multiverse of gaming... will I never have paid for the death of Aleena?Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2750858425589737642.post-45985436457957198022013-02-12T06:13:55.797+00:002013-02-12T06:13:55.797+00:00Just got turned on to your page, and I love it...
...Just got turned on to your page, and I love it...<br /><br />However, I will forever despise you Bargle for killing my companion with magic missiles in that Red Box solo adventure when I was a youth. Revenge will be mine!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07005996546625334694noreply@blogger.com