Ages ago I bought the D&D5e PHB. I liked the look of it, more or less. Over the intervening months - in which I haven't played it, but have played Classic D&D (and OSR variants) and Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2e - I've reconciled myself to some of the bits and bobs that turned me off. Quick levelling? Well, lately I always cut the requirements for the early levels anyway, given the shorter, less frequent sessions we play as adults. Hard to kill PCs with rapid HP regeneration? Well, I long ago turned hitting 0 HP into something other than straightforward death - roll on the Death & Dismemberment table anyone?
And there is quite a lot to like about 5e. For one, it seems pretty streamlined, and the skill system doesn't seem too intrusive (at a read through), more like a codification of the mix of d6 rolls, reaction table/morale rolls, ability checks and Saving Throws by which I tend to adjudicate non-combat situations requiring a dice roll.
I'm not sure if I am going to pick up the DMG and the MM. I am certainly tempted. It is D&D after all, and to me it *feels* so much more like D&D than 3e or 4e ever did (in my limited experience).
One thing still worries me.
Cantrips. At will. No preparation required. Damage dealing.
I get the idea of giving low level Wizards something meaningful to do in a combat encounter. I get the idea of trying to provide narrow balance *within* a combat encounter, even though I am comfortable with a more broad based balance, as a game of D&D ought to be about far more than combat. Avoiding combat, for one thing. I also take the point that has been made to me that a Wizard with a crossbow (and decent Dex) will do more damage, on average, than he or she will by casting Fire Bolt each turn.
But.
But a crossbow can be taken away. It can be left in a room as the adventurers attend a feast or explore a town. It can run out of quarrels. A Wizard who knows Fire Bolt never, ever runs out of Fire Bolts. Every. Single. Round. Plus they can set things on fire. Do they count as magical attacks against otherwise invulnerable creatures? And in that bar brawl? Have you met my little friend the Shocking Grasp? Electrocution damage by touch attack. At will. Every. Single. Round. That Wizard just became a master of unarmed combat, with no question of managing resources.
It is not just a case of narrow balance within the combat encounter, even if I like games in which, once the steel is drawn the Fighter class is undoubtedly superior. It is also a question of what kind of game world do these rules imply, in which damage dealing magic is an unlimited resource for even the most modest of 'magic users'. Has questions of this sort figured in your games?
I asked the O5R Google+ group, but what I am really looking for is answers from people who share my tastes. Do you like Classic D&Ds and their clones and variants? Have you played (or more, run) 5e? The opinions of people who hated 'old school' Magic Users are no good to me in this context. Yes, I get it that this game is fun for you, but I want to know how it plays for someone with a taste in D&D that instinctively sees these things as problems, rather than features.
I want to be reassured that my prejudices are misplaced. I want to like and play the new D&D. I want to spend my money.
[Next: is it true what they say about those Dwarven Wizards in armour, eh?]
On the cantrips: it's a fundamental shift in how you think of wizards and other spell casters in 5E, and the one thing which changes how 5E feels compared to 1E/2E. If you are able to adjust accordingly, it's not too horrible....from a GM's perspective we simply have to stop thinking of mages from levels 1-4 as being relatively limited 1-2 shot "canons" and think of them more like adept combatants who are tricky but drop quick with concentrated arrow fire. That said....I think one could house rule a cap on at-will cantrips pretty easily in 5E (maybe limit them to level+attribute modifier uses per day, for example) and that would help greatly to align 5E's feel with older editions.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, it's definitely closer in spirit IME to 2E than the last two editions. Check out the optional rules in the back of the DMG as well on other ways to make the game more gritty and tough, too.
Yes, I picked up the DMG and the Monster Manual yesterday, and started reading the DMG last night. It looks a very useful book, though why there is all the stuff on the Planes before we get to the procedures for running exploration I don't know. I do like that it is full of random tables - some of that stuff really speaks to the 'old schooler' in me.
DeleteI did check out the optional rules on HP recovery and short and long rests. Pretty neat and easy changes to make.
It's not that I will try to house rule cantrips - I'd like not to - but I wanted to draw on the benefit of other players (and more, DMs) whose reference point was the limited casters of 1e/2e and B/X rather than the more 'shooty' casters of later editions.
I've been running 5e since the day I got my hands on the starter box and I've been letting the players do what the want with character design and simply finding them a challenge to play with in between the story-telling. If I was unsure about cantrips though I would recommend telling your players what cantrips they learned before becoming an adventurer. Problem solved! The player will thank you in the long run, getting some use out of prestidigitation, dancing lights or friends is much more gratifying than rinse/repeat with eldritch blast. :)
ReplyDelete"...getting some use out of prestidigitation, dancing lights or friends is much more gratifying than rinse/repeat with eldritch blast. :)"
DeleteYes, in my ideal game the 'blasty-blasty' aspects of Wizards would be definitely a tightly limited resource, but the I'd like a way to make the little used low level utility spells would be far easier to cast. The 'problem' with Classic D&D Magic Users isn't so much limited combat prowess - I can't say often enough that there is far more to adventure than combat, and in my experience of CD&D is that combat=chance of PC death and is therefore something to be avoided. No, it is that the kind of spells that would make a Wizard feel magical (and prestidigitation, dancing lights or friends are far more magical than a flashy equivalent of a light crossbow) are often pushed out by the 'cannon' spells of Magic Missile, Sleep, Burning Hands, etc.
With 5e, though, I want to run it 'neat', with as few houserules as possible, at least for a while. It has been a while since I've done that with any game. What I have to do is avoid bringing in the lovely clean exploration procedures and the like from B/X or BECMI and try the 'native' systems. Which reminds me - are there 'morale' rules? Have I missed those on my admittedly bits and pieces reading of the rules?
Oh, and the starter box... worth it for the adventure alone, now that I have the core books?
DeleteYes. It's a great adventure.
DeleteAgreed, the Lost Mines is lots of fine and I'm told Rich Baker was responsible for the design of it and also the forthcoming Princes of the Apocalypse module which would make a great continuation (less so horde/tiamat). The starter rules booklet is a handy reference sheet to paw over as well. As for morale, not a big feature really beyond the 'frightened' condition some enemies/spells cause. It's wrapped up in the HP system I guess, in an abstract way. Some nice rules on insanity in there, and some of the planar effects would accentuate them, if you're a frustrated Call of Cthulhu keeper! ;)
DeleteThere are morale rules in DMG on page 273.
DeleteIt's based on Wisdom saves, so now you can treat Wisdom as a Morale characteristics from older editions (with possible save (proficiency) bonus for brave but dimwitted creatures).
Thanks for that. I am working my way through the DMG at the moment, and I am impressed by what I see so far. Still can't wrap my head round the decision to put a whole chapter on the Planes of Existence before the chapters on running the game...
DeleteRe: 'bonus for brave or dimwitted creatures' - it occurs to me that you could use the advantage/disadvantage rules here.
Cantrips don't work within Antimagic zones. Tinkering with a House Rule - when you run out of level spells you are magically fatigued and can only cast each Cantrip once more until you regain a slot. Alternatively have to make a Saving Throw to cast Cantrips if no Spell Slots remaining.
ReplyDeleteHi Richard (I deleted the duplicate comment, I hope you're not offended). Those sound like good ideas. I'll try the rules as written for my first 5e games (over Easter) but I might take the opportunity to tone it casters down depending on how they play at the table.
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ReplyDeleteThe cantrips are nothing to worry about. They seem crazy to us old schoolers, but aren't overpowering at all. And they can be taken away: Wizards need components, they need to be able to move their hands, and to speak.
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